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Was there ever a MkVI? Summary of e-mail discussion Early 1999 As with all e-mails, using the reply button, this is an unedited version, and there may be multiple copies of the same message. If anyone would like to edit this to make a true story, please do so, and return to Alastair Lauener
Hi Alastair -- Re: this thread -- I've saved ALL except the first message on the XK list on 1/15/99, "Was there ever a Mk VI?", which got me going. It's a TON of stuff by now; because I now know how to copy, it's all here in chronological order as best I can do it. The story is STILL not over -- see Mark Stephenson's latest at the end. Here's everything on my machine to date: 1/15/99 Hi Roger Learmonth & all -- Re: "Mk VI" -- this from Paul Skilleter's JAGUAR SALOON CARS, p/135, 136: "The use of Mk V as a model name in 1948 was, perhaps, a little unimaginative of Jaguar. if only because problems were obviously going to arise when the twin-cam saloon successor to the Mk V came along...Bentley had already been using Mk VI since just after the war...So what did Jaguar do? Simply skip a number and call the Mk V replacement 'Mk VII.'...As we have seen, the missing model never existed. Some people have conjectured that it was the Mk V fitted with the twin cam XK engine, but while the Mk V was indeed used to test the XK engine over high mileages (and Walter Hassan remembers the XK powered Mk V as being very pleasant to drive), at no time was it a production proposition. In any case, even if the car had carried the XK engine, it would STILL have been known as the Mk V, with 'Mk VI' inevitably being left out of the model sequence because of the Bentley complication. I may appear to be labouring the point, but the 'Mk VI' Jaguar ghost has wandered abroad for long enough, and deserves to be laid at rest." Actually, there were two Mk Vs with the XK engine installed -- one was
the above-mentioned test buck, dismantled after proving that the XK would
do very well indeed in the new Mk VII, and no longer existing. The other
was William Lyons' own transportation for several years; I believe this
"Lyons" Mk V may now be in the hands of the JDHT in Coventry.
********** Hi Pre XK and XK folk, Has anybody come across reference to, two MK VI Jaguars reputedly built by the factory? They are supposed to be XK engined MK Vs. Any information gratefully received. Roger L From Rob Reilly, <xk120q@ix.netcom.com.>, 1/17/99: Perhaps I can contribute a bit of information towards this subject. Skilleter in "Jaguar Saloon Cars" reports there were two Mark V RHD saloons fitted with XK engines by the factory, being chassis numbers 623053 and 623173. The Mark V register of the Classic Jaguar Assn. has 623053 listed as surviving in New Hampshire, color black, with engine W-1130-7 (a very early XK120 number incidentally). This car carried British registration number JBC 441. I also have in my possession a letter from deputy assistant director R.E.Berry dated 1970 in which he recalls the experimental department fitting a metallic grey RHD saloon with an XK engine for testing, which was registered HRW 488 and remained in England for many years before disappearing. Berry said the standard braking system was not equal to the potential performance. My suspicion is that the Mark VII vacuum assisted brakes came about as a result of this testing. In a 1995 interview with Jaguar World just before he passed away, FRW Lofty England recalled that there was one test mule, and a second one was built for Lyons' personal use. Now as to which was the mule and which was the Lyons car and where is
623173 today? No doubt a mystery more obscure than XKC023. From Dick Clements, <Dick.Clements@hawke.co.uk>, 1/18/99: The Mk V in the JDHT Museum is Mrs Lyons own vehicle and is engined just as you'd expect it to be.... in-line 3.5L six. I saw the car (with others) on a transporter making its way to Donnington for the XK event this year..... DickC From JagMkV@aol.com, 1/19/99: When I was shopping for a Mark V, I met a fellow at the Bridgewater (Ct. USA) antique auto show who had a Mark V with an XK DOHC engine. Apparently he did the conversion himself. So, there probably are some more Mark V's equipped with XK engines floating around. God help us if someone puts a Chevy into one of those beautiful cars. I'd personally shoot the bastard. Craig Carragan Southbury, Ct. USA 1/19/99 Hi Terry -- your information (HRW 488, which I assume is the original British registration), and chassis # 620004 (the 4th 3.5-liter RHD Mk V built) could be correct -- BUT your first registration date, 25/18/48 (Oct. 25 1948) can't be unless Skilleter messed up -- on p/633 of JAGUAR SALOON CARS, he lists the first 3.5-liter Mk V RHD (620001) in March 1949. Your engine #, W1187-7, is indeed an early twin-cam -- the 187th built -- BUT the car we know as one of the two Skilleter mentioned, 623053, is alive and resting in Medford MA (owned by Tony Otolo, 781-393-4493), and has engine # W1130-7, the 130th twin-cam built. Is your information from a still-existing car? We're trying to sort this historical information, and have found only two MK Vs that had the xk engine installed for testing purposes -- 623053 and 623173. Skilleter gave us these chassis #s as having the XK engine installed, but he also said "At least..." -- which means 620004 may have been a third (although it couldn't have been registered in '48). PLEASE let me know your sources for this information. If we're all wrong, we need to know! TNX & take care -- Larry Martz, Registrar, Mk VII/VIIM/VIII/IX 1/19/99 (To Mike Cook, Editor, JAGUAR JOURNAL, Jaguar Clubs of North America) Hi Mike -- On 1/15/99, I got involved in a thread on the xk list about the "Mk VI" which has now moved to Mk Vs with XK engines -- here's what's happened to date: The question was raised -- "Were there any Mk VIs?" So I went for Skilleter's JAGUAR SALOON CARS, and responded: ********** 1/15/99 Hi Roger Learmonth & all -- Re: "Mk VI" -- this from Paul Skilleter's JAGUAR SALOON CARS, p/135, 136: "The use of Mk V as a model name in 1948 was, perhaps, a little unimaginative of Jaguar. if only because problems were obviously going to arise when the twin-cam saloon successor to the Mk V came along...Bentley had already been using Mk VI since just after the war...So what did Jaguar do? Simply skip a number and call the Mk V replacement 'Mk VII.'...As we have seen, the missing model never existed. Some people have conjectured that it was the Mk V fitted with the twin cam XK engine, but while the Mk V was indeed used to test the XK engine over high mileages (and Walter Hassan remembers the XK powered Mk V as being very pleasant to drive), at no time was it a production proposition. In any case, even if the car had carried the XK engine, it would STILL have been known as the Mk V, with 'Mk VI' inevitably being left out of the model sequence because of the Bentley complication. I may appear to be labouring the point, but the 'Mk VI' Jaguar ghost has wandered abroad for long enough, and deserves to be laid at rest." Actually, there were two Mk Vs with the XK engine installed -- one was
the above-mentioned test buck, dismantled after proving that the XK would
do very well indeed in the new Mk VII, and no longer existing. The other
was William Lyons' own transportation for several years; I believe this
"Lyons" Mk V may now be in the hands of the JDHT in Coventry.
********** Hi Pre XK and XK folk, Has anybody come across reference to, two MK VI Jaguars reputedly built by the factory? They are supposed to be XK engined MK Vs. Any information gratefully received. Roger L ********** Some additional info re: XK engines in Mk Vs -- Paul Skilleter's JAGUAR SALOON CARS also has as part of a photo caption on p/136: "...at least two (RHD) Mk V saloons were experimentally fitted with XK engines from new (623053 and 623173). The former was sold secondhand and survives today in North America..." Also -- an ad in the Sep. '98 HEMMINGS MOTOR NEWS: "1950 Mk V saloon,
experimental car of William Lyons, fitted with XK120 engine, this car is
one of two fitted with 120 engines, the other was eventually scrapped after
testing by Jaguar, this car is in need of restoration, expensive, own a
piece of Jaguar history, Jaguar sports or exotic trades considered. I've talked with Tony Otolo in Medford MA -- his XK-engined Mk V is 623053,
which confirms Skilleter. Also, Tony is sure his is the one used by Lyons,
with original British license plate JVC 441, engine # W1130-7 (very early
XK120 series), and body # G6458, and confirms that the other one, 623173,
was scrapped after testing. He also believes the "Mk VI" came
from workers on the two cars at the time; it was NEVER intended to be a
model designation. Also, one of our British members has confirmed that the
JDHT has Lady Lyons' Mk V, which has the Standard 3 1/2 liter OHV engine. 1/19/99 -- further from the xk and saloons lists: Date: Mon. 18 Jan 1999 23:39:21 +0800
HRW488 chassis no. 620004 engine no. W1187-7 first registered 25/10/48 last registered 5/62 to an insurance co in Chemlsford in Essex terry ********** Karen -- I'm sending this to Mike's e-mail address because I STILL don't have one for you -- as Archivist, can you confirm the following information? -- Mk V: Chassis # 620004 (Because Skilleter doesn't mention this chassis #, I suspect it's NOT one of the two built with the XK engine. I have an e-mail query out to Terry McGrath to find out his sources and more.) Chassis # 623053 Chassis # 62317 I hope you can help! Tnx -- Larry ********** Mike -- As you can see, I've suddenly gotten into a significant piece
of Jaguar history. Now late tonight -- getting this much to you -- I KNOW
there will be more to come -- take care my friend -- Larry X-POP3-Rcpt: jagmkix@mail From: "tmcgrath" <tmcgrath@bigpond.com> 620006 engine no S1786 first regd 25\ 10\ 48 X-POP3-Rcpt: jagmkix@mail To: Jaguar XK list <xk@jag-lovers.org> Well done, Terry and Larry. So there are now three cars under consideration. 620004 with XK engine W1187-7, registered HRW 488, recalled by R.E.Berry. This would be the fourth RHD saloon off the production line. 623053 with XK engine W1130-7, reported by P.Skilleter, claimed by the present owner to be the Lyons personal car. 623173, engine # unknown, reported by P.Skilleter. I wish he had given his source on this one.The chassis number is more than halfway through the production run, like mid 1950, at which point the Mark VII design would have been 90% nailed down, which makes me want to doubt it as being the test mule. I would be more inclined to believe the testing occurring in '49, and the Lyons special coming later after the experimental boys were sure they wouldn't leave "The Boss" stranded on the high road in an unreliable car. So were there three? Did Heynes or Whittaker or some other board member get one? Interesting to speculate on. Possibly one of these could have been a later conversion, which was not all that rare among Mark V's as the pushrod engines tended to break con rods. I notice that those two engine #'s are very early, in the alloy 120 era. Does anyone have any listing of either of those engines having first gone into an alloy 120, from whence it could later have gone into the Mark V? W1130-7 or W1187-7? To: JagWorld1@aol.com (Paul Skilleter) 1/22/99 Hi Paul -- on 1/15/99, I got involved in a thread on the XK list about the "Mk VI" which has moved to Mk Vs with XK engines. Here's much of what's happened so far: From David Goodchild, <bblacksh@philly.infi.net> -- "My reason for asking the question below was that this Mark V on e-bay is advertised as having the DOHC engine. XK? One of those cars was supposed to have come to North America according to Larry's excellent records. I suppose it's too much to hope that...? There's also a Mark V at: <http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBaylSAPI.dII?ViewItem&item=57645346> No picture for the above, but here's the description. "This 1950 Jaguar is in need of restoration but has a very nice body and complete interior. All the glass is good, and the chrome is also. It has a dual overhead cam 3.4 litre with the original 4-speed manual transmission..." Note: Did the Mark V have the XK engine?" From Dick Clements, <Dick.Clements@hawke.co.uk "The Mk V in the JDHT Museum is Mrs. Lyons' own vehicle and is engined just as you'd expect it to be...in-line 3.5L six." From Craig Carragan, Southbury, Ct. USA, <KagMkV@aol.com> -- "When I was shopping for a Mark V, I met a fellow at the Bridgewater (C. USA) antique auto show who had a Mark V with an XK DOHC engine. Apparently he did the conversion himself. So, there are probably some more Bark Vs equipped with XK engines floating around. God help us if someone puts a Chevy into one of those beauriful cars. I'd personally shoot the bxxxxxxxd." From Reilly family, <xk1202@ix.netcom.com> "Perhaps I can contribute a bit of information towards this subject. Skilleter in "Jaguar Saloon Cars" reports there were two Mark V RHD saloons fitted with XK engines by the factory, being chassis numbers 623053 and 623173. The Mark V register of the Classic Jaguar Assn. has 623053 listed as surviving in New Hampshire, color black, with engine W1130-7 (a very early XK120 number incidentally). This car carried British registration number JVC 441. I also have in my possession a letter from deputy assistant director R. B. Berry dated 1970 in which he recalls the experimental department fitting a metallic grey RHD saloon with an XK engine for testing, which was registered HRW 488 and remained in England for many years before disappearing. Berry said the standard braking system was not equal to the potential performance. My suspicion is that the Mark VII vacuum assisted brakes came about as a result of this testing. In a 1995 interview with Jaguar World just before he passed away, FRW Lofty England recalled that there was one test mule, and a second one was built for Lyons' personal use. Now as to which was the mule and which was the Lyons car and where is 623173 today?" Here's a couple of hundred words based on what I've learned to date for your possible use: ********** On 15 January, someone on the XK list (Internet) raised the question about the "Mk VI" Jaguar. With Paul Skilleter's JAGUAR SALOON CARS in hand, I responded, quoting pages 135/136:
"The use of Mk V as a model name in 1948 was, perhaps, a little
unimaginative of Jaguar, if only because problems were obviously going to
arise when the twin-cam saloon successor to the Mk V came along...Bentley
had already been using Mk VI since just after the war...so what did Jaguar
do? Simply skip a number and call the Vk V replacement 'Mk VII'...As we
have seen, the missing model never existed. Some people have conjectured
that it was the Mk V fitted with the twin cam XK engine, but while the Mk
V was indeed used to test the XK engine over high mileages (and Walter Hassas
remembers the XK powered Mk V as being very pleasant to drive), at no time
was it a production proposition. In any case, even if the car had carried
the XK engine, it would STILL have been known as the Mk V, with 'Mk VI'
inevitably left out of the sequence because of the Bentley complication.
I may appear to be labouring the point, but the 'Mk VI" Jaguar ghost
has wandered abroad for long enough, and deserves to be laid at rest." Tony, 781-393-4493 or 781-483-5308, MA." So I called; he has 623053, and it isn't really for sale -- he was seeking people like me to call him. He's not online, so we're doing things with snail & phone. He's now sent me photocopies of: Letter from Jaguar Cars Ltd., 22nd Feb. 1965, to Mr. J. Arnold Esq., (Paul -- I think Hoddinott is wrong here; the XK120 announcement was in Oct. '48 (660001 at Earls Court), and the earliest Mk V in your listing was in Mar. '49.) From JAGUAR XK, FORTY YEARS ON by Andrew Whyte -- "Below: Whilst the Jaguar Mk 5 Drophead coups and saloon models were the Company's last vehicles to be fitted with the pre-war design of the ohv engine, this picture shows the experimental car of William Lyonsm registered JBC 441, which had the XK120 engine installed. This photograph was taken shortly before the move to Browns Lane in 1951."
From COLLECTIBLE AUTOMOBILE, June '89, letter from E. B. Vrijaldenhoven, Gavenhage, Holland -- "...I am sending you a photo I made in springtime 1951 near the Jaguar Service Department of one of the two Jaguar MARK VI (Yes, Mark SIX!) they built as experimental cars. After 35 years, the former Service Manager (1951) and later Manager Director of Jaguar, Mr. F, R, W, (Lofty) England, wrote me the following letter when I sent him that photo as a New Year's wish: 'Thank you for the photos...the Mark V on the right of the photo is in fact a Mark VI - Registration Number JVC 441. It was built for Sir William Lyons. You can in fact see that the bonnet is longer than standard and the radiator a little further forward - 4 inches in fact. Only two cars like this were made, one used by the experimental department (eventually scrapped) and the black car in the picture sold to George Hack, an engineer with Bristol aircraft - what happened to it later I never heard..." From THOROUGHBRED & CLASSIC CARS, Sep. '94, Discovered -- "...One MkV was fitted with the new overhead cam engine destined for the Mark VII. This was used as a mobile test bench and run by William Lyons. On this car, JVC 441, the radiator was moved forward by 4 in and the bonnet lengthened accordingly. The car later went to the United States and, with 63,000 miles on the clock, it has been found in the Boston area..." 623053 is alive and well today, in the hands of Tony Otolo of Medford
MA However -- I've alse seen a message from Terry McGrath, I still don't know about Terry's source(s) for 620004; I still suspect his "first registered 25/10/48" because you show 620001 in Mar. '49; and the license # on Tony's 623053 is JVC 411, NOT JBC 411; I don't know where Terry got JBC 441. So the mystery continues, eh! ********** Paul -- is it possible that 620004 was a 3rd XK-engined Mk V done by the factory? I've asked Karen Miller of JCNA, our North American archivist, to confirm by chassis #s the info we have on 620004, 623503, and 623173; I'm also writing to Tony O'Keeffe and Julia Simpson of JDHT (by snail because they're not online yet) with the same question. Feel free to use any/all of this as you wish -- Tony's asked me to keep his address here, but his phone # is OK to publish because he used it in his Sep. '98 HEMMINGS ad. I'm also posting this to Les. Hughes. As more comes in, I'll stay in touch -- take care -- Larry From: "jagmag" <jagmag@ecn.net.au> To: <jagmkix@cwo.com> Subject: The Jaguar Magazine Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:23:55 +1000 Hi Larry, Wow, what a hornet's nest! I have many records of my own taken from the build books at the factory, and in my MkV section I have noted that the first and second MkVs (RHD #1 and #2) have no build dates, but were dispatched on 18.1.1949 and 3.3.1949 (engine #T5003). Chassis #2 was sold to Brylaw Motors in Australia - Jack Bryson being very important and close to William Lyons. Chassis #4 to #8 were all works cars and all cars up to #8 were built in the Experimental Department. #4 was registered 'HRW488' and #6 'HRW487' so there is no reference to #4 or even #6 ever having an XK engine, certainly Terry's dates are incorrect and there is no way any MkVs were run by the factory registered in 1948. In fact, #4 and #6 are the first two MkVs having been registered at all. RHD chassis #11, 13, 16, and 17 were all sent to Oz and #19 to NZ so you can discount any those from having had an XK engine from new. As for the reference of 'JBC441' in Andrew's book, that is purely a typesetting error - you can easily read the plate on the car and it is 'JVC' . I will definetly run your piece in edition #84 which I am completing right now - perhaps we can find #2 in Oz too? Have just been out with Kon in the lat couple of hours photographing S-Types and 420s for #84, so it all go at the moment. Please keep me in touch with all of that, and I would love a pic of the car as it is now if you happen to find one. Keep up the good work. Kindest regards LES. To: JagWorld1@aol.com (Paul Skilleter) 1/24/99
Hi Paul -- This just came in from Les. Hughes, <jagmag@ecn.net.au> -- more documentation for the Mk VI - XK-engined Mk V disucssion. Take care -- Larry ********** Hi Larry, Wow, what a hornet's nest! I can tell you that I too asked Lofty about the XK engined MkVs and he told me that it was quite a performer. He tried it and was very pleased, but added that the person who drove the car (or cars) most regularly was Bill Heynes. This of course, makes sense since all of the those Jaguar's were his babies and he was an engineer of extraordinary proportions (sadly, much forgotten and most under-estimated today). I have many records of my own taken from the build books at the factory,
and in my MkV section I have noted that the first and second MkVs (RHD #1
and #2) have no build dates, but were dispatched on 18.1.1949 and 3.3.1949
(engine #T5003). Chassis #2 was sold to Brylaw Motors in Australia - Jack
Bryson being very important and close to William Lyons. Chassis #4 to #8
were all works cars and all cars up to #8 were built in the Experimental
Department. #4 was registered 'HRW488' and #6 'HRW487' so there is no reference
to #4 or even #6 ever having an XK engine, certainly Terry's dates are incorrect
and there is no way any MkVs were run by the factory registered in 1948.
In fact, #4 and #6 are the first two MkVs having been registered at all. As for the reference of 'JBC441' in Andrew's book, that is purely a typesetting error - you can easily read the plate on the car and it is 'JVC' . I will definetly run your piece in edition #84 which I am completing right now - perhaps we can find #2 in Oz too? Have just been out with Kon in the lat couple of hours photographing S-Types and 420s for #84, so it all go at the moment. Please keep me in touch with all of that, and I would love a pic of the car as it is now if you happen to find one. Keep up the good work. Kindest regards LES. Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:07:39 -0500 From: Roger Learmonth <RLearmonth@compuserve.com> Subject: [xk] XK engined Mark V's To: "INTERNET:xk@jag-lovers.org" <xk@jag-lovers.org> Thank you to everyone for the mass of information on the XK engined MK Vs. It's really quite remarkable what knowledge is out there and what people are prepared to share. I am in the process of restoring a MK V and the prospect of popping in a twin-cam had flitted across my mind, but a four-inch longer bonnet probably kills the idea. Thank you all again for invaluable information. Roger L To: philip@porter-jaguar.demon.co.uk (Philip Porter) 1/25/99 Hi Philip -- on 1/15/99, I got involved in a thread on the XK list about the "Mk VI" which has moved to Mk Vs with XK engines. I wound up VERY involved because of access to books, etc.. This has been posted to: Paul Skilleter, <JagWorld1@aol.com>; Les. Hughes (Editor of the JAGUAR MAGAZINE in Australia), <jagmag@ecn.net.au>; and Mike Cook (Editor of the JAGUAR JOURNAL for the Jaguar Clubs of North America), <mlcooknj@bellatlantic.net>. On 15 January, someone on the XK list (Internet) raised the question about the "Mk VI" Jaguar. With Paul Skilleter's JAGUAR SALOON CARS in hand, I responded, quoting pages 135/136: "The use of Mk V as a model name in 1948 was, perhaps, a little unimaginative of Jaguar, if only because problems were obviously going to arise when the twin-cam saloon successor to the Mk V came along...Bentley had already been using Mk VI since just after the war...so what did Jaguar do? Simply skip a number and call the Vk V replacement 'Mk VII'...As we have seen, the missing model never existed. Some people have conjectured that it was the Mk V fitted with the twin cam XK engine, but while the Mk V was indeed used to test the XK engine over high mileages (and Walter Hassas remembers the XK powered Mk V as being very pleasant to drive), at no time was it a production proposition. In any case, even if the car had carried the XK engine, it would STILL have been known as the Mk V, with 'Mk VI' inevitably left out of the sequence because of the Bentley complication. I may appear to be labouring the point, but the 'Mk VI" Jaguar ghost has wandered abroad for long enough, and deserves to be laid at rest." On p/136, in a photo caption, Skilleter notes: "...at least two (RHD) Mk V saloons were experimentally fitted with XK engines from new (623053 and 623173). The former was sold secondhand and survives today in North America." I looked in the Sep. '98 issue of HEMMINGS MOTOR NEWS, and found: "1950 Mk V saloon, experimental car of William Lyons, fitted with XK120 engine, this car is one of two fitted with 120 engines, the other was eventually scrapped after testing by Jaguar, this car is in need of restoration, expensive, own a piece of Jaguar history, Jaguar sports or exotic trades considered. Tony, 781-393-4493 or 781-483-5308, MA." So I called; he has 623053, and it isn't really for sale -- he was seeking people like me to call him. He's not online, so we're doing things with snail & phone. He's now sent me photocopies of: Letter from Jaguar Cars Ltd., 22nd Feb. 1965, to Mr. J. Arnold Esq., Fairways, Edsons Farm, Downside, West Town, Nr Bristol, Gloucestershire -- "Dear Sir, We think you for your letter of the 16th February, 1965, from which we note that you have recently purchased a 1950 Mark V Jaguar fitted with a twin overhead camshaft engine. We would confirm that wwo such cars were in fact fitted with a twin overhead camshaft engine when this engine was being developed prior to production of the XK120. These cars were used as mobile test beds before the XK120 was announced...D. J. C. Hoddinott, Home Sales Department" (Paul -- I think Hoddinott is wrong here; the XK120 announcement was in Oct. '48 (660001 at Earls Court), and the earliest Mk V in your listing was in Mar. '49.) From JAGUAR XK, FORTY YEARS ON by Andrew Whyte -- "Below: Whilst the Jaguar Mk 5 Drophead coups and saloon models were the Company's last vehicles to be fitted with the pre-war design of the ohv engine, this picture shows the experimental car of William Lyonsm registered JBC 441, which had the XK120 engine installed. This photograph was taken shortly before the move to Browns Lane in 1951." From COLLECTIBLE AUTOMOBILE, June '89, letter from E. B. Vrijaldenhoven, From THOROUGHBRED & CLASSIC CARS, Sep. '94, Discovered -- "...One MkV was fitted with the new overhead cam engine destined for the Mark VII. This was used as a mobile test bench and run by William Lyons. On this car, JVC 441, the radiator was moved forward by 4 in and the bonnet lengthened accordingly. The car later went to the United States and, with 63,000 miles on the clock, it has been found in the Boston area..." Philip: Tony Otolo's car, 623053, alive and well in Medford MA, has engine # W1130-7 (the 130th twin-cam engine built), AND the British registration plate JVC 441 in the rear bumper assembly. Because Paul documented this # as one of the two built with XK engines (JAGUAR SALOON CARS p/136, photo caption), AND because of JVC 441, we believe Tony's is the one William Lyons used. At this point, machine says "Soorry, the text of a message or document cannot be more than 32766 bytes. 0, (38:168) -- so I'll have to continue in another one to you -- Larry Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:31:47 -0500 Larry M, Interesting assembly of the known info the XK Mk Vs. You can assume that Terry M's info came from the chassis records and it would be no surprise that 004 may have been registered before 001, as I guess we are talking about almost prototypes here. Regards, John Elmgreen To: xk@jag-lovers.org 1/25/99
Hi John Elmgreen & all -- John, TNX for your info about 620004 possibly being registered before 620001; V. GLAD to have your knowledge as part of this effort. HOWEVER -- Les Hughes (Editor of the JAGUAR MAGAZINE in OZ), <jagmag@ecn.net.au>, told me (yesterday): "...#4 was registered 'HRW 488' and #6 'HRW 487' so there is no reference to #4 or even #6 ever having an XK engine...there is no way any MkVs were run by the factory registered in 1948. In fact, #4 and #6 are the first two Mk Vs having been registered at all..." As I think I said before, the mystery continues, eh! X-POP3-Rcpt: jagmkix@mail My apologies to Larry, I typed JBC441 erroneously, should have been JVC441. Harold and Roger, I recommend against the XK conversion. It's too long front-to-rear compared to the pushrod engine. My Mk V was XK-converted in the 50's or 60's by a PO who torched away the anti-sway bar and part of the front frame cross member to clear the oil pan, cut a big hole in the firewall for the tach drive, butchered in a Mark 1 or 2 radiator, bent the fan blades because they were up against the radiator, and glued the MkV radiator cap into the shell, not pretty. I'm in the process of undoing those butcherings. The factory solution of extending the bonnet sounds better mechanically but is probably not right esthetically. I once saw a MkV with a Pontiac SOHC inline six and automatic trans, also not a happy conversion. Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 23:11:00 -0600 Hello Larry, it's Rob Reilly. I saw your summary on the XK engined Mark V thread, and shall be very interested to hear if you get anything back from Paul Skilleter about the identity of the factory XK engined MkV's, especially his source of info on 623173. Since he is such a well recognized authority on Jaguar history, I wouldn't like to dispute him on this one point, but there is this nagging doubt in my mind because of the late chassis number. On the other hand, 620004 is so very early, and as Terry says it was registered on Oct 25 1948, it occurs to me that it may well have been one of the 1948 Earl's Court show cars, of which I believe there were two or three displayed, along with a bodyless Mark V chassis and of course the famous bronze XK120. As you may already know, the Mark V was introduced to the press on Sept 28, 1948. So possibly 620004 could have been a press and dealer demo, or an executive
car kept around the factory for awhile and later used as the test mule.
If you or Mr. Skilleter is interested, I would be happy to send Xerox copies
of my letter from Mr. Berry recalling the registration number HRW488. Best Regards, To: Dick.Clements@hawke.co.uk (Dick Clements) From: jagmkix@cwo.com (Larry Martz) Subject: Your Mk V 1/30/99 Hi Dick -- I FINALLY had a look at your piece on 625833 -- congratulations! Your acquisition story was rather neat -- how/why did the brakes catch fire? Fronts or rears? What burned -- linings or hydraulics? (After all, the Mk V was the first Jaguar chassis with "modern" hydraulic brakes rather than rods.) I definitely agree with your philosophy: "...keep the car on the road and enjoy it!" I also appreciate seeing your plans; your intent is obviously to retain as much originality as possible. FYI -- yours is one of the last 3.5 litre RHD Mk V saloons -- 620001
was despatched 1/18/49; 623053 (Tony Otolo's, with XK engine W1130-7, the
130th XK engine built, and British license JVC 441, which we think confirms
that this was William Lyons' personal car) was manufactured 3/20/50. From
January '49 through June '51, there were 5,926 3.5 litre RHD saloons produced
-- with yours just 93 cars from the end of production, I estimate it was
manufactured in late May or early June '51. A GREAT car -- will let you know when/if I hear from Tony O'Keeffe re: "permissions" -- take care -- Larry Martz X-POP3-Rcpt: jagmkix@mail JBC441 came from this email obviously wrong should be coventry rego JVC first regd circa may 1950 my info from official rego records in coventry ---------- > From: tmcgrath <tmcgrath@bigpond.com> > HRW488 chassis no 620004 engine noW1187-7 first registed 25\10\48 To: xk@jag-lovers.org 2/1/99 Hi Terry & all -- Terry, TNX for yours of today, confirming typo "JBC"! Your "JVC first regd circa May 1950..." confirms what we know of my friend Tony Otolo's Mk V, chassis # 623053, engine # W1130-7, British license plate JVC 411, alive and resting in Medford MA USA. From post to Otolo from JAGUAR CARS LIMITED, Browns Lane, Allesley, Coventry CV5 9DR, dated 29 October 1990: (Signed by) MRS G T SWAIN, SUPERVISOR VEHICLE DESPATCH & CHASSIS RECORDS NB THIS CONFIRMS THAT THIS VEHICLE WAS ORIGINALLY FITTED WITH AN XK ENGINE. By now, we're pretty well convinced that Tony's car (623053) was the one used by Lyons because of JVC 441 and the one photo (at the factory) we've seen to date, with JVC 441 prominent. We'll continue on this effort; Tony Dudmesh and Julia Simpson at JDHT have been queried by snail (they're not online yet) -- more to come as we continue to progress, thanks in part to your help! Take care -- Larry Martz Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:09:38 +0000 Larry,
Further to my assistant's recent reply to you, I have now gone more deeply into the subject today for my next Column in the Jaguar Driver. You will see in the March issue that I have devoted most of the Column to the Mark V, or is it Mark VI - you will have to wait and see! Think you might have to change the name of your Register, though! Best, To: philip@porter-jaguar.demon.co.uk (Philip Porter) 2/2/99 Hi Philip -- I understood your assistant's reply, but frankly did NOT
expect to hear from you so soon, or so positively! I look forward with GREAT
interest to the March '99 JAGUAR DRIVER, because what you've found can only
add to the information base we're quickly (now) getting on these two questions:
Also -- A "Mk VI" won't stop us with the INTERNATIONAL Mk VII/VIIM/VIII/IX REGISTER -- we (the Registrars) decided long ago that since the Mk VII was Jaguar's first "modern" saloon, and the Mk IX was Jaguar's last "chassis" car, we'd not include the Mk V (despite the XK engine in 2 or 3 for testing, not a "modern" saloon) or the Mk X/420G ("modern" saloons, but unibody, no chassis). In our view (and, we think, in Sir William's), the VII/VIIM/VIII/IX have a category all their own (if only because William was knighted "Sir William" in '56 primarily because of the effect of his conpany's influence on the British economy, caused mainly by international sales of the Mk VII/VIIM)! The "Mk VI" belongs more appropriately in the Mk V REGISTER -- at least, that's what we think. TNX for yours of today -- take care my friend -- Larry Martz To: saloons@jag-lovers.org 2/2/99 Hi David N, Goodchild & all -- David, if you've followed our posts since 1/15 when the "Mk VI-XK engine in MK V" thread started, you know we have 623053, Tony Otolo's car. alive and well in Medford MA USA -- TNX for the Hemming's online info; I found Tony through his ad is Hemmings (hard copy) in Sep. '98. Take care -- Larry Martz ********** The following was on Hemming's searchable web site. Cheers, David N. Goodchild X-POP3-Rcpt: jagmkix@mail Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 15:46:13 -0500 From: "Robert C. Brosen, Jr." <brojag@erols.com> Somewhere in my dusty files, I have a copy of a letter from the Factory
stating that they made two Mark V saloons with XK engines to be used as
test beds for the engines. Bob Brosen To: donm@itg.net (Don Moore, Tony Otolo) From: jagmkix@cwo.com (Larry Martz) Subject: [Saloon-lovers] "Lyons" car 2/3/99 Hi Don & Tony -- Here's the latest -- my response today to a message from Bob Brosen querying "Lyons" cars, explaining why we think 623053 IS a "Lyons" car (my response, then Bob's query), posted to the saloons list. ********** 2/3/99 Hi Bob Brosen & all -- Bob, by now, we're pretty well convinced that Tony Otolo's Mk V (623053, eng. # W1130-7, the 130th XK engine built) was the one used by Lyons because of JVC 441 and the one photo (at the factory) we've seen to date, with JVC 441 prominent. THAT'S what we mean by a "Lyons" car -- built in his factory and actually used by William himself. The other XK-engined Mk V, 623173, was apparently dismantled after testing the new engine, and no longer exists to the best of our current knowledge. We'll continue on this effort; Tony Dudmesh and Julia Simpson at JDHT have been queried by snail (they're not online yet) -- more to come as we continue to progress. Take care -- Larry Martz ********** Somewhere in my dusty files, I have a copy of a letter from the Factory stating that they made two Mark V saloons with XK engines to be used as test beds for the engines. One was dismantled and destroyed, the other sold as a used car to someone in England and eventually found its way to the US. To the extent that the "Factory" was "owned" by Lyons, I guess you could say these were Lyons' cars, but considering the general implication by calling these "Lyons' cars", I would think this is stretching the definition just a little bit. Bob Brosen To: xk@jag-lovers.org, saloons@jag-lovers.org From: jagmkix@cwo.com (Larry Martz) Subject: Update: Mk VI, XK engines in Mk V 3/1/99 Hi all -- You'll remember that Tony Otolo in Medford MA USA is the owner
of Mk V 623053, eng. # W1130-7 (the 130th XK engine built), date of manufacture
March 20 '50, British reg. # JVC 441 (the car we believe was driven by William
Lyons in '50-'51). Tony's been doing some research -- in "MARK VI SALOON HRW 488 620004 Black (XK engine) (J. Flattery) On p/98 (quoter named Tony Thompson on this pg): "Lofty once said that was Sir William's great delight to put a Jaguar Mark V beside a Bentley Mark VI - which is, of course, why we never made a Jaguar Mark VI, or indeed, why they never made a Bentley Mark VII - and walk down the street. He would then say to whoever he was walking with, 'I am going to ask you to turn around and tell me of those two cars behind you, which one is the Jaguar'. It was absolute plagairism!" For its humour value -- same pg, later (at the '59 NY Moror Show, attended
by Sir William and Tony Thompson): "...Sir William said to me, 'Thompson,
'Look,' he said, 'it works perfectly.' 'Sir Lyons, temperatures get to 15 below.' 'Young man,' he said, 'you just put on an overcoat.' " As of today. it seems there were probably three Mk Vs with XK engines installed by the Experimental Department -- 620004 (which seems to have been dismantled), 623053 (alive and resting in Medford MA USA), and 623173 (which seems to have been dismantled). We've seen documentation that Lofty England at first referred to JVC 441 as a Mk VI, then later (above) talking about "why we never made a Mk VI." This is the latest here for this thread; when'if JDHT (not online) comes up with anything definitive, or anything else that's significant develops, I'll be back. Take care -- Larry Martz X-From_: owner-xk@jag-lovers.org Wed Mar 3 01:31:10 1999 From: "Eric Capron" <eric@beaconsfield.demon.co.uk> To: "XK List" <XK@jag-lovers.org> Subject: [xk] Mk VI Reprise He says that he thinks that there may have been three cars in total. 620004 had an XK engine and was registered HRW 488. This car was subsequently broken up and the registration and chassis number transferred to another Mk VI, 623173. ex Experimental Dept. He also mentions that another Mk VI, 620006, which had been lent to Lockheed for testing was used in part with the boken up car to make one good one, then registered HRW 487. Finally, he says that he has no record of the Lyons car, 623053. Presumably this was the one that was registered JVC 441. There is much more detail for anyone interested in the saloons. X-From_: art49y@47jaguar.freeserve.co.uk Wed Mar 3 04:10:25 1999 From: "ART WILLIAMS" <ART49Y@47jaguar.freeserve.co.uk> To: <jagmkix@cwo.com> Subject: Re: [Saloon-lovers] Update: Mk VI, XK engines in Mk V Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:00:36 -0000 Larry, You will be pleased to know you got a mention in Porter's column in the this month's JDC magazine. Regards Art
To: xk@jag-lovers.org, saloons@jag-lovers.org 3/4/99
Hi all -- in Tuesday's snail came the following from Karen Miller, JCNA
Archivist: The XK engine number W1187-7 claimed to have been installed is not recorded. Neither was a build date recorded against 620004 (no build dates are recorded against the first 8 Mk V saloon chassis). It originally had a 3.5L pushrod engine installed (with proper "S" prefix). Car was recorded as having gone to the "Experimental Dept." The date of this transfer is not recorded. At an undetermined date thereafter, 620004 got an XK engine, but it was not W1187-7. Presumably the car was then used as intended, by product development people. In 1950, 620004 was given a new chassis number, 623173, and its XK engine, body, and gearbox numbers were finally properly recorded. (This is where the idea that there was a third XK powered Mark V came from.) 623173 (ex-0004) also got a build date of 3/30/50, despite the fact that it was laid down several years earlier.
Chassis number 623173 was not dismantled, but is next shown as "transferred to 1951." On 1/6/54, 623173 was sold to "J. E. Bird Autos Ltd." as "Experimental, fitted with an XK engine." No UK registration number was recorded at time of sale. The question, of course, is what was 623173 doing from 3/30/50 to 1/6/54? By 1950 it had outlived its purpose, and was probably getting pretty
tired. Chassis 623053 is recorded as having the engine number W1130-7, Body
G6458. The car is recorded as a "Works Car, sold S/H" (second hand), and "this car has XK engine fitted." On 8/24/51, 623053 was sold second hand to mr. G. Hack, Esq. with a first UK registration number of JVC441. There is no indication this car was assigned to William Lyons. Cars assigned to executives are usually so recorded. If lyons did drive this car on a daily basis, somebody should remember it. Has anybody asked Pat Lyons/Appleyard what she remembers? Has anyone contacted the JDHT Archives to inquire if there are any pictures of Mr. Lyons with a Mark V bearing the [late number JVC441? With all due respect to Mr. Otolo, one needs more than verbal assurances to back a claim of this nature. Unfortunately, the evidence is not in the build records; more energetic research remains to be carried out." Here's my response: Karen, MANY THANKS for the information! For your information, Tony Otolo wrote to Jaguar Cars Ltd. in 1990 with his chassis #, 623053; he received an Archive information sheet dated 29 October 1990: CHASSIS NO: 623053
2ND OWNER WAS MR G R HACK MRS. G T SWAIN, SUPERVISOR, VEHICLE DESPATCH & CHASSIS RECORDS Tony also has a photo showing a Mark V with registration # JVC 441 in
front of the "Jaguar Service" building before the factory's move
to Browns Lane. So now, Alastair, I think you have all I've generated and all that's come in here to date -- sorry it's so bloody much, and coming in in "dribs & drabs" -- but we appear to be getting the info to answer the questions about the "Mk VI" and the XK engines in Mk Vs. As more comes in, you'll get it -- take care -- Larry Return To MkIV-V page- Back to Saloon Lovers Last Update 18 March 1999
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